Secrets of Flickr's Explore and Interestingness

Well guys, this is one of the secrets I really hope WikiLeaks will reveal one day! :)

Flickr created a real mystery around their ranking system which produced a massive hype within the users. Myself, I spent at least 3 days trying to crack the Da Flickri Code. Not because I wanted to get explored every day (well, not only!) but more because I just wanted to get how it works, at last. Using all my upper-intermediate knowledge of Excel (where I transferred the statistics of my 250 photos uploaded on Flickr so far) I managed to work out a few formulas based on logarithms that were quite close but still didn't correspond correctly with the ranking of my photos sorted by Flickr Interestingness. So I gave up and decided that the only way to get the secret algorithm is to get hired by Flickr Company (maybe). LOL

Anyway working with the huge amount of the statistics of my photos I noticed a number of dependences between activity around the pic and its ranking. And here they are.

1. FAVORITES.
Favorites are the main element that affects on your photo ranking. The more favorites you have the higher the photo will go. Don't even bother to check your photo in Explore Top 500 if it was marked as favorite less than 5 times on the upload day.

2. COMMENTS.
Same as with favorites (the more you get the better you do). But with the same amount of faves and comments, the latter would equal about twice less. Besides, comments made by you are not counted at all, so don't spend time postwhoring in your own thread - it will not help you at all and more likely will alienate other users.

3. VIEWS.
Some users think it is the key element of getting explored. Not at all. Actually views are counted when the system needs to rank the photos with all other equal activity elements (for example, two photos have the same number of comments and faves). But overall, by my calculations more than 150 views may equal just 1 fave. One of my photos has 350 views with 0 comments and 0 faves and Flickr charted it lower than a photo with only 39 view but 1 comment and 1 fave. Although there is one dependence between views and ranking that I noticed: the more views you have from referral sites than from Flickr pages the higher your photo would go. This is how Flickr tries to attract new users I guess.

4. GROUPS.
There is a lot of discussions about how adding photos to Flickr groups affect on Interestingness. I made few experiments and I can officially announce that adding photos to groups do NOT affect on the ranking of your photo whether you add it to 1 group or 60. The only thing is that some groups are black listed by Flickr staff when compiling Explore Top 500. Thus, if you added your photo to a group with the striking slogan "Post #, Comment on #, Fave #" or with simple name "P1/C1,A1,F1" (even if your reason was to add a picture of a flower to a flower group as it also says in its title), your photo will not get through to the Explore. Forced commenting or favoriting is considered as cheating.

5. TAGS.
This is a very important element! By my observations every tag that you add gives you extra points. But not more than 10. Every next tag after the total number of 10 would not help you anymore.

6. GEOTAGGING.
After geotagging your photo Flickr's algorythm always propels it higher up the Interestingness chart. So don't be too lazy and drop your pic on a map.

7. DESCRIPTION.
Believe it or not but description does not affect on your interestingness position in any way. Lazy photographers can shout happily now. :)

8. GALLERIES.
If your photo has been added to someone's gallery just say thank you but don't believe it will help you to get explored - it gives 0 points to your photo's interestingness.

9. NOTES.
Adding notes (by you or by other users) does not affect on the photo's popularity score at all. But adding a person as a note may block the picture from getting to the sacred Top 500.

10. DATE, SIZE and EXIF INFO of the photo.
Impact of all these elements was not confirmed by my investigation. But some users say it does affect on the ranking. Personally, I think it does not.

So these were 10 main activity elements you may find on Flickr and the affects they produce.

Some people say that without description or geotag your photo would never make Explore. This is not true. I saw plenty of exlpored shots without description, geotagging, tags and groups altogether. All these elements only add more points to your final score. But the main goal is favorites and comments.

Summing up, if we draw a chart pie of a 100% Flickr success, the slices would be:
40% - favorites
25% - comments
15% - views (10% external traffic, 5% Flickr users)
10% - tags (1% for each tag, total 10 tags max.)
10% - geotag

Sounds easy but the last question is how to attract those favorites and comments if you can not add photos to groups popularizing photo awarding? Here are some hot tips for you:

- comment and fave other users' photos. It is very likely that they will visit your photostream and comment back.
- look through explored photos, add to your contacts people who comment a lot. Active users usually add many photographers to their contact list and comment on all their new uploads, so try to get on that list too.
- try to add only your best photos and don't upload too much as you can be deleted from other users' contacts as a photospammer. :)
- don't forget to tag and geotag your photos. After that they will probably be captured by Google and similar searching systems and you will receive some boost of external traffic.
- integrate your Flickr profile with major social networks. Your friends from Facebook and Twitter or the readers of your blog would also give you some fat daily views numbers.
- participate in various competitions organized everyday in lots of Flickr groups. Actually this is the best way to use the groups on Flickr.
- be active, nice and make friends. I think this is the key element of your success.

I hope it will help you to sort out Flickr Interestingness and to make Explore.

Good luck!

Serge Freeman
(my Flickr photostream)

Vancouver Moonrise by Lloyd Barnes

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Olympus Pen E-PL1 camera, Olympus 50-200 mm zoom lens, tripod

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
For the city scene: focal length 50 mm, 8 sec at f/5.6, ISO 100. I used the self timer to take the photo without touching the camera during the exposure to avoid motion blur.

For the moon: focal length 200 mm, 1/125 sec at f/16, ISO 100

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Lightroom 3.3 and Photoshop CS4

Q4. What is the location?
Vancouver, BC, Canada

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I wanted to combine the beautiful cityscape with the fresh snow on the background mountains and the full moon. The settings for the moon exposure were very different than the settings for the cityscape, so I took the photos separately and combined them in Photoshop. I thought it would look more interesting if the moon was rising over the mountains. Later, I converted the photo to black and white in Lightroom and loved the results!

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
This is the first shoot that I did with my new Olympus Pen E-PL1 camera and I was very happy with the results!

Merry Christmas Everybody by Terry Grealey

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
I used a Sony Alpha A350 for the shot. This was the last shot I took with this camera, as I upgraded to the A380.

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
Exp = 1.6 seconds
Apeture = f5.6
Focal length = 45mm
ISO = 100
The shot was taken with a manual focus.

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
The original shot was taken in RAW and because Photoshop doesn't recognise Sony raw files, I had to convert the file to jpeg using Sony Image Suite. Then I did my usual tweeking (saturation, sharpness, etc) using Photoshop CS4.

Q4. What is the subject of the photo?
The subject was centred around the unusual Christmas tree baubles that depicted the countries of the world, in an attempt to show the global message of Christmas (Peace on earth kinda thing).

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
Again my initial thought was, how great would it be to incorporate the image to depict peace on earth. The depth of field was provided by the lights on my Christmas tree.

Meltwater by Matthew Howarth

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
This was one of my last shots on my Canon 300D, with my 24-105mm L lens. I had a 9 stop ND filter (Lightcraftworkshop ND500) on, and, unsurprisingly, a tripod and cable release. I was really tempted to get rid of the filter for a shot, but knew how I wanted it to look and took the risk to keep it on.

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
I metered for the water before putting the ND filter on, then, as the light suddenly changed, was guesstimating the exposures and checking on the LCD for feedback. It was taken from a footbridge, so as people walked over I had the opportunity for test shots at higher ISO. When I got a break I dropped the ISO back down to 100 and shot - I got only a handful of opportunities, so things were a little tense with the light only a brief moment.

This shot ended up being; 55 seconds ¦ ISO 100 ¦ f/11.0 ¦ 24mm, shot in RAW.

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Lightroom 3 was used first to create three versions of the shot. I applied a lens correction in each case, as well as some noise reduction. The water and sky versions were practically identical, with a slight drop in clarity, slight desaturation and a boost to the brightness. The snow was very blue and underexposed, so that had a stop of exposure added and massive desaturation to the blue channel.

I dropped the three images into Photoshop 7.0 and manually blended them using a tablet. Curves and the hue/saturation sliders were used on the snow layer to try to blend it in naturally - not entirely successfully!

Q4. What is the location?
It's the footbridge near the entrance to the Rickmansworth Aquadrome, a local nature reserve in the UK - a ribbon of lakes sandwiched between a couple of rivers and a canal.

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
It was at the end of a long day shooting only somewhat successfully in the heavy snow, and I was trudging back home. When I got to the bridge, the snow on the trees along the river was so striking that I thought I'd take an extra ten minutes to have a play with a recently acquired ND filter.

The initial shots were fine, but uninspiring, experiments with a grey winter sky. Suddenly the sky lit up to the East and swept round into frame. The main decision was whether to keep the filter on and take fewer shots, or to take it off and lose the blur to the river.

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
First off I had a kingfisher flying around to the right of the frame, daring me to abandon this one, but I figured I couldn't get a decent shot of it with the kit I had in the low light.

The main frustration was the passersby, all of whom slowed down, very kindly, to minimise shake to the camera, whilst I wish they'd just run across and given me more time with no one walking over.

Christmas by Jill Maguire

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Nikon D700 and a 50mm F/1.4 lens that my husband gave me for Christmas (I had just opened it and put it on the camera before I took this shot).

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
Aperture priority set to f/1.4 (there were two overhead lights but the room was still pretty dark), 1/100 shutter, ISO 2500. For indoor shots I always use manual focus point and I aim for the eyes. I also set the ISO to whatever will give me at least a 1/60s shutter speed.

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Lightroom 3 using a built-in preset.

Q4. Who is the model?
My dog Brady.

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I was taking pictures of Brady tearing up wrapping paper and I knew I wanted Christmas tree bokeh in the background. I picked this shot because it looks like he's exhaling bokeh dots.

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
While in this position, Brady looked at me and burped, which I also caught on camera. That shot is in the comments of the main shot uploaded on Flickr.

Light my way by Fabien Bravin

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
I used Canon 7D and Sigma 180mm macro lens

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
Shot in the evening light, the settings for this pic were: ISO 200, f/7.1, 1/200 sec, no flash

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
I used LR2 to develope the raw file and adjust the levels and tones and then CS5 to reduce noise, resize and convert to SRGB profile.

Q4. What is the subject of the photo?
It's a praying mantis larva (less than 2 cm long) born in May and shot in June

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I'm fond of macro photography and spend a lot of time in the meadows and in my garden with my camera looking for insects and any other tiny creatures that live in a micro world. :)

p i l a r by Martin Andersson

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
I used Nikon D90 with the 18-105mm lens

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
F/5.6, 1/400 sec, 66 mm, ISO 200 and Exposure +1,7 step because of the snow

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Photoshop CS4 and Nik SilverFx to turn the picture B&W.

Q4. What is the location?
The photo is taken in Skåne (Scania), South Sweden.

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I was out driving and looking for trees to capture with my camera. When I was driving on a small quiet winter road I saw the tree line of Pilar (pilträd in swedish). I parked the car and went out in the snow to capture the beautiful scene. I was really happy with this shot.

Blue Alley by David Butali

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Canon 500D + Canon 24-105 f4L

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
1/500 sec, f/4, 45mm, ISO 200, -1EV

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Adobe Lightroom

Q4. What is the location?
The garden facing the Castle in Arezzo, Arezzo, Italy. The alley is leading to the castle entrance.

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
The light was so amazing and the snow was so heavy...

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
The snow was falling on my lens and I had not an umbrella, so I cleaned it very often as it was very difficult to focus.

Frosty Tree by Jeff Dalton

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
I used a Nikon D300 with 18-200vr lens

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
F/7.1, ISO 200, 1/800 sec, focal length 62mm

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Photoshop CS3

Q4. What is the location?
Aldford in Chester, Northwest England, United Kingdom

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I regularly walk my dog in this area and have taken pictures of this tree and gate before in nicer weather. I always liked the composition of the picture and decided that on this particular day that the snow and frost would add something extra to the shot so decide to take my camera along whilst walking my dog. I was not disappointed. However my dog was not impressed at having to wait around in the cold whilst I took some pictures.

More Light by Barb Dickie

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Nikon d300s and 50mm f/1.4 lens, Manfrotto tripod. The three champagne glasses are filled with sparkling water and placed on a homemade light table. Small Christmas tree lights provide the coloured lights. Homemade bokeh filter alter the shape of the bokehs.

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
The final image is a montage of four:
The glasses on the light table (background image) - 50mm 1.4 lens at f2.8, 1/90 sec, iso 400.
Bokeh image 1 (circles - no bokeh filter) - 50mm lens, ISO 400, f/1.4, 1/50 sec (under exposed 2 full stops)
Bokeh image 2 (snowflakes with bokeh filter) - 50mm lens, ISO 400, f/1.4, 1/30 sec (under exposed 2 full stops)
Bokeh image 3 (hearts with bokeh filter) - 50mm lens, ISO 400, f/1.4, 1/20 sec (under exposed 2 full stops)

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Basic adjustments of each of the 4 images made in Lightroom 2. Final montage created in Photoshop 2. All done in layers. Some cloning, opacity reduction, transforming of each bokeh layer.

Q4. What is the subject of the photo?
The photo is a festive take on sparkling water.

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
It was in answer to Flickr Group “Our Daily Challenge’s” topic – More Light on December 23. I felt that an image making use of a light table with the addition of three different bubble bokehs would qualify as more.

I have been experimenting with my new light table and bokeh filter and thought a montage using the two new tools was in order and Christmas/New Year provides a relevant context. I had seen many images using bokehs as bubbles and thought I would try my hand.

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
I kept losing the bubbles in the glasses and I drank the water and refilled but gave up as it was impossible to attain a uniform bubble density. I was thinking if this had been champagne, I never would have completed the image.

Blyth Beach Huts by Steven Warren

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Canon EOS 450D, Sigma EX 18-50mm

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
F/16, shutter 1/60, ISO 400, focal length 37mm.

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Adobe Camera Raw used to adjust exposure to give the 'high key' look. Photoshop CS3 used to merge the 12 shots and then add some dodging and burning to improve contrast.

Q4. What is the location?
Blyth, Northumberland, UK

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I had seen these huts a number of times but really wanted to do something different from the norm. I intentionally got as close to the huts as possible to get the extreme fisheye look (that's why it took 12 shots taken in portrait orientation to get it all in). The idea to blow out the sky came to me in post processing as it made the colours pop a little better and gave a nicer minimalist feel to the shot.

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
This was meant to be a practice shoot to see if my idea would work. I didn't think the light was right on location and planned to come back just after sunrise so the huts would be front lit, rather than backlit. However, when I finished with the shot I was really pleased with it - sometimes photography just works out like that I guess.

Just Vivid by Marc A. Sporys

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
I use a Canon 50D with the 100mm ƒ/2,8 Macro lense, two Sigma 500 DG-S flashguns, an old Osram flash from my dad and of course a lot of pc-cord with some hot-shoes.

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
F/14.0, Shutter set to Bulb, ISO Speed at 100 and manual focusing.

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
At first, import into Lightroom and some local light adjustments. After the export in Photoshop I added a little sharpness and remove a few drops of color I didn‘t like.

Q4. What is the subject of the photo?
These are water-based colors diluted with water for better movement on a small speaker, which is coverd with a white balloon. The color sequence is from a rainbow.

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I love colors and I saw something like that at Flickr and I wanted to give it a try and it was a wonderful session.

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
I had a lot of fun to take this photo and it was a very big mess. My new painted room wall was after the shooting full of rainbow colors. In addition it was very interesting, to see how the shapes have changed while I've changed the frequency from around 50 Hz to 200 Hz.

Narrows in the Making by Mike Diaz

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Canon 5DmkII, 24-105mm f/4L, Manfrotto 055CXPRO3 tripod, Really Right Stuff BH-55, B+W Kaesemann Circular Polarizer

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
1 sec @ f/18, ISO 200, 50mm

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Adobe Camera RAW imported into Photoshop CS4

Q4. What is the location?
This is along the iconic hike to the Subway in Zion National Park (Utah, USA), about 4 miles in, and just before you reach the Subway proper.

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
This is a shot that has been done many times over by every photographer that embarks on this hike. That being said, I included more leaves than I've seen in many other compositions since I really liked how they stood out on the highly saturated red rock. I also cooled the white balance a bit on the water to provide a great contrast to the warm rock and leaves.

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
Along the trail, I had been collecting colorful fall leaves so that I would be able to use them to my greatest advantage once I reached some of the places I wanted to shoot. Turns out every photographer has probably heard the same advice I did, so once I made it to the crack there was already a plethora of great leaves...so many in fact that I actually had to remove some to keep the composition from becoming too busy.

o. by Marc Benslahdine

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Canon EOS 50D, Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM, Canon 580EXII flash triggered remotely with a cable sync

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
Exposure: 1/250 s, aperture: f/8, focal length: 100mm, ISO 100

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Adobe Photoshop Lightroom

Q4. What is the subject of the photo?
The subject is a reflection of a drop of water.

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I like the pictures that look out of a fantasy world. When I get bored and the weather is not favorable I do this kind of photography in my kitchen :o)

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
I wanted to take a picture in the dark to see if the lighting was not a problem and forgot to focus before shooting! It was just a test shot, the focus was on the reflection of the drop. I found it funny with the black hole behind.

Radiant London by Constantinos Hinis

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Nikon D300, 12-24mm, cable release, Manfrotto 190CXPro4 tripod, ball head.

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
12mm, f/11, ISO 200, various shutter speeds, vertical orientation, multiple shots blended for exposure correction and stitched to form a panorama.

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Photoshop CS5, Photomatic Pro.

Q4. What is the location?
Thames river, opposite Westminster Palace, London, UK

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
There really is no particular reason... It's just that I am in London, and Big Ben is perhaps the most iconic place in London, and I wanted to take a different shot of this over-photographed place.

We met Santa Claus by Gaston Batistini

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Canon 5DMKII with the 24/105mm 4IL IS USM

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
ISO 100, 1/6 sec, f/4.0, @55mm

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Adobe Photoshop CS5

Q4. Who is the model?
An old guy who is doing Santa Claus every year in the Bitcher'land in France

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I went to my parents in law and in the middle of the night I woke up and I told to my wife that I want to make a picture of Santa Claus in his house. The morning we called him and I told him that I was a fan of him and I wanted to visit him in his house to make the picture. He was astonished but finally I convinced him and he agreed.

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
There was no way to come with a lot of material while a single flash was not the best way to do it. So I put him on a chair near a window and it gave this great Santa Claus look.

Solway Clouds by Robert Friel

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
This shot was taken with a Canon EOS5D 17-40f4L Gitzo3540 Tripod with Manfrotto 410 geared head. Lee filters inc Big Stopper.

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
Exposure 90 sec, aperture f/11.0, focal length 17 mm, ISO 50

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Processed in Lightroom 3 - blue tint applied to base using a local adjustment (graduated)

Q4. What is the location?
Beckfoot, Solway Firth, Cumbria, UK

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
It's a location I've been to before and there were fast moving clouds blowing directly towards the hills in the distance. The colour idea came from looking at it in mono.

Singapore National Day by Souvik Bhattacharya

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Nikon D90 with Sigma 10-20mm lens

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
F/11; Shutter: Bulb; ISO: 100; Focus: Manual

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Abobe Photoshop Lightroom

Q4. What is the location?
Singapore

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I wanted to capture fireworks in Singapore from some new location. So while exploring the surrounding I thought to try this angle.

Corn Lilies by Barrett Donovan

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
I used a Canon 5d Mark II with a 24-105L lens

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
F/8, ISO 200, 1/8 sec. with the lens at 65mm

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
Photoshop CS4

Q4. What is the subject of the photo?
Corn lilies near Lake Tahoe, USA

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I saw a huge patch of corn lilies on a mountain bike ride last summer after they were past their prime and knew I had to go back. To help with the wind I brought a huge reflector to shield them from movement. Many shots of many corn lilies later I finally found the group I liked. Sore back aside I had a great time being outside wandering around the forest - not a bad way to spend a morning. This shot is a blend of two images for depth of field which I did using the new auto-blend functions of CS4, which work great.

Peeling The Moon by Sean Bagshaw

5 questions about this photo:

Q1. What equipment did you use?
Canon 5D MK II, Canon 24-105mm f/4 IS lens, Gitzo Tripod, my jacket

Q2. What settings did you have on your camera?
1/6 second @ f/22, ISO 100

Q3. What software did you use during the post-production?
This was originally a very low contrast image. In Photoshop CS I used a series of Curves adjustment layers with blending modes set to overlay, soft light and screen. This increased contrast and saturation. I further worked the luminosity and contrast with some localized dodging and burning on a dodge/burn layer.

Q4. What is the subject of the photo?
This is dry, cracked mud in the Utah desert that has been pitted by rain drops.

Q5. How did you come up with the idea of this shot?
I was hiking several miles across the Utah desert to photograph a remote slot canyon. Along the way I noticed this wonderfully textured mud in a dry river bed. The mid day light was very harsh and contrasty so I shaded the area with my jacket. This allow the more subtle warm light reflecting from the bank of the river bed to be visible. I felt that the abstract pattern, pitted surface texture and the way that the light caught the tips of the curled mud made a compelling image.

Extra Q: Please share an interesting or funny fact that happened while working on this photograph.
When I finally reached the slot canyon I found it filled with water. I waded into the icy water with my camera bag held over my head. The water quickly became deep and soon only my head and camera were not submerged. Not able to continue farther I had to hike back to my car in wet clothes and without a photo from the slot canyon. The photo of the cracked mud was a good consolation however.